Templating the Old Kingdom

[Tamien]

I was talking with kappa on tumblr and she requested a thread because tumblr is terrible for conversations. So! This thread is for kappa to tell us all about his templates for the Old Kingdom in! Also if anyone else wants to jump in with templates for the Old Kingdom books please do! My only request is that nobody spoil Clariel because I haven't had the chance to read it yet.

[Kappa]

I haven't read Clariel either. Is Clariel out? Should I go find it and read it?

Let's see if I can render the contents of my rather tiny Abhorsen spreadsheet in a sensible-ish format here...

Code: Select all

# - Shiner   - Verb      - Canon champion - Ended up     - Template - Incarnation
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1   Ranna      Sleeper     Touchstone       Royals         ?          ?
2   Mosrael    Waker       Sanar&Ryelle     Clayr          ?          ?
3   Kibeth     Walker      Dog              Dog            Joker      [nope]
4   Dyrim      Speaker     Ellimere         Great Stones   ?          ?
5   Belgaer    Thinker     Sameth           Wall           Tony       [Tony]
6   Saraneth   Binder      Sabriel          Abhorsens      ?          ?
7   Astarael   Weeper      Lirael           Lonely         Sherlock   *Lirael
8   Yrael      [nope]      Self             Mogget         Joker      [nope]
9   Orannis    Destroyer                    Bound

The central thing I am excited about when it comes to templating the Old Kingdom is having some non-purple template go through Sabriel's origin story and encounter Joker!Mogget (optionally followed by Joker!Touchstone); originally I pitched it to Alicorn with a Bell in that slot, but it'd work with somebody else too, I think.

As loosely implied by the spreadsheet, in my imagining of this the champion/incarnations of the Bright Shiners are all the same template as their original Shiner. (Astarael is a Sherlock. Of course Astarael is a Sherlock. XD)

[Oraanu]

Wait, I think Astarael is the creator of the Abhorsen line, not Saraneth. "In Nicholas Sayre and the Creature in the Case, the Hrule implies that [the Abhorsens] are the bloodline created when Astarael bound herself in the Charter, calling them "Astarael's get". (source)

[Kappa]

Huh. Well, the spreadsheet was based off of the three books; I've never read that short story. I do recall doing a bit of process-of-elimination to get an 'ended up' for all the Shiners; if Astarael created the Abhorsens all on her (heh) lonesome, then Saraneth's got absolutely nothing, which seems wrong.

[Tamien]

Clariel came out in October! I haven't managed to get my hands on it yet. You should go find it and read it!

I agree that Saraneth suits the Abhorsen bloodline better even if the short story implies Astarael may have been involved.

Copying tumblr ideas for non-kappa templates from tumblr: i’m having a hard time fitting anyone else’s templates onto the main story (a bell as sabriel just seems so straightforward!) but hmmm… of aestrix's characters, zev and adarin could maybe i guess replace ellimere and sameth? (though i personally think those two as a tony and a sherlock would be perfect) alternately maybe a zevless adarin could be lireal? lynn would probably have to be undead somehow… like replacing chlorr or nicholas sayre or someone like that? marri's characters… emma would probably be Random Wyverly Student and Jenny would probably be one of the Clayr? am i forgetting other glowficcers?

I am a bit surprised that BOTH Kibeth and Yrael are Jokers, cause the nine having two of anything is surprising. (Especially if Touchstone is a Joker TOO because then doesn't that mean THREE of the shiners were/are Jokers??) But when it comes down to it they're all Jokerish in their own ways and I can't pick just one of them to be "the" Joker.

Yes Tony taking Sameth's place is just The Way Things Are.

I think Sherlock makes sense for Astarael but I am curious what the asterisk by Lirael means (I like Sherlock as Lirael a LOT though).

Oh no what if Ellimere is an ELSPETH because Dyrim is the Speaker ARGH. Aside from the fact that Alicorn's not into it, I think my idealized Effulgence!OldKingom headcanon can't happen simply because it would totally screw up every family-relation template-attractor of every template. Like, Sherlocks are not the half sisters of Bells. Neither Tony nor Elspeth in the child of a Bell and a Joker. Old Kingdom, what are you even doing with these templates, I don't think you know how they work.

[PlainDealingVillain]

The Old Kingdom Wiki agrees with Kappa here, and specifically says that Astarael and Kibeth were the two out of the Seven who didn't join bodily with the Charter. It also suggests that the Stones and the Wall weren't separate projects, but that Dyrim and Belgaer are both part of each. Also, did you know there's an Old Kingdom wiki?

[Kappa]

I actually had Ellimere down as a Dominique, who is in fact the offspring of a Joker and a Bell, but of course that fails for lack of Alicorn too so I edited it out of my sheet along with Bell-as-Sabriel.

There is no third Joker Shiner. I have some notion that either Kibeth or Yrael might have naturally occurred, but the other one was introduced by the local BEE specifically for Orannis-related reasons. This BEE is very put out that THINGS keep HAPPENING to the Jokers they throw into the universe. With Kibeth and Yrael both bound/diminished, it made Touchstone, only for Touchstone to get himself stuck to a ship. Then it was like "well bugger, how do I get him out of there", and templated Sabriel as somebody appropriate.

The asterisk by Lirael means "a template-replacement of Lirael".

PDV, the source on the claim that Astarael begat the Abhorsens is also the Old Kingdom Wiki. But if it disagrees with itself, I'm inclined to favour my own interpretation.

Are there any glowficcers who actually want to throw their own templates in here? Who has somebody they want to volunteer as Sabriel?

[Tamien]

Ooh, Dominique also makes sense for Dyrim, and pushes the boundaries of template relations much less :P

Hmm but I thought you were saying all the champions would be of the same template as their corresponding shiner?

If the BEE introduced Kibeth or Yrael, then the BEE must have been around since, well, the very beginning. Although Yrael could be a later addition shiner and that could explain why they weren't part of the original binding? Except then that doesn't explain why Yrael was bound :/

What names would you give to inserted templates? Kibeth, Yrael, and Touchstone can pretty much all keep their names for reasons, but Sameth!Tony and Lirael!Sherlock would probably have different names.

I do not think I could do a good Sabriel replacement or I would be jumping to :( *crosses fingers that SOMEONE wants to throw their template in*

[Kappa]

Well, define "a good Sabriel replacement"... XD

Yes, I think this might be a case where the BEE was never a person in the universe and is just sort of a watchful underlying force.

Joker!Touchstone doesn't have to champion anybody. Which means I need another Royal-blooded champion for Ranna, but I'm sure I or my hypothetical partner can pull one out of somewhere.

I've also been considering that Touchstone might be a JokerSherlock, in which case he's probably of the "natural twin of a Miles" variety because cloning has got to be thin on the ground in the Old Kingdom, and there's a dead or otherwise inconvenienced royal or part-royal Miles around at the time of the main plot... XD Maybe they both got figureheaded, and Ranna was a Miles.