The Pantheon Game
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Kappa
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Re: The Pantheon Game
I like Ade's notion about count and mood. Another, potentially complementary, idea is sort of 'probationary followers' - followers converted through fear are tracked separately from solidly loyal ones, and have a chance every turn to either become loyal (not very likely) or deconvert (something like 30-50%?). They probably also have a negative effect on local loyal-follower mood. XD
Re: The Pantheon Game
I think my thing could accommodate that. The mechanic I was imagining was that you'd spend a certain amount of mood to upgrade followers in a particular territory from one sort to another, but it could also be that a certain types of follower units count double/triple/whatever when you're figuring out where you stand for mood vs. followers.I'm imagining follower mood as a sort of unit rank, so more devoted followers are more powerful units.
Like - say you have a region with 5 mood and 4 basic followers. You can spend two mood to convert one follower into a basic military unit, leaving you with 3 mood and 4 followers (3 basic, 1 military), so one of the basic ones flees the area. Or, you can spend three mood to convert one follower to a cleric, which then counts double for mood purposes; you have 2 mood left, so that territory can support the cleric but *only* the cleric, and the other three followers flee. (Having followers flee might not be that big of a deal, if you're generating units in internal territories and they just move to a different territory of yours- they will keep going if the territory they try to move to doesn't have enough mood to support them, though - but you'll mostly want to convert units on your borders, so in practice you'll lose followers to other players pretty often. Or the fleeing rules could be made a bit more complicated.)
ETA: Also this makes sense of how military conversions might work - running an army through someone else's territory would eat that territory's mood faster than its follower count, so that some of the followers who live there flee to your territory - but you can only keep them if you have places with high enough mood to fit them in, and I think new converts *shouldn't* keep traveling through territories until they find one that can fit them, they should just disappear if the first one they try doesn't work.
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Bluelantern
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Re: The Pantheon Game
That sounds easier to keep track.Kappa wrote:I like Ade's notion about count and mood. Another, potentially complementary, idea is sort of 'probationary followers' - followers converted through fear are tracked separately from solidly loyal ones, and have a chance every turn to either become loyal (not very likely) or deconvert (something like 30-50%?). They probably also have a negative effect on local loyal-follower mood. XD
Instead of "probationary followers" we could distinguish them as "followers" and "faithful"?
Also, about domains earlier: I feel that domains should have some game mechanic, it sounds like a waste that Volcano type terrain can't send a "plague" in the form of a powerful eruption.
Sorry for my bad english
"Yambe Akka take the stars, they’re zombies!" - Isabella Amariah
"Yambe Akka take the stars, they’re zombies!" - Isabella Amariah
Re: The Pantheon Game
Note: I'm not a game designer basically at all, these mechanics might work really badly in practice. Also to the best of my memory I've never actually played Risk, though I know enough about it to have the general idea.
Having mulled it over a bit, here's some rules that seem to make sense to me:
- Each territory contains a certain number of followers, up to some medium-sized number like 20 or 40. These aren't represented individually for the most part, but with coinlike counters - there are counters for 5, 10, and possibly 20 followers, and the remainder are noted using a d5 (the game is played all with d5s, right, am I misremembering that?) with the relevant number showing. It may also contain special units - armies, priests, and acolytes - belonging to various players.
- Each territory also contains a certain amount of faith, which is also represented using coinlike counters; there is no upper limit to the amount of faith a particular bit of territory can contain. If the number of faith points is lower than than the number of followers at the beginning of the player's turn, followers will leave to make up the difference (they move to adjacent territories, if they can, following certain rules about which ones they prefer; otherwise they disappear); if no followers remain in the territory, the player doesn't control it any more and any other player can move in.
- Players can spend 5 faith points from a territory to add one follower to that territory, as many times as they want during the main portion of their turn.
- At the beginning of their turn, each player gets a number of action points (which very much need a better name than that) equal to the number of followers they have. There is a list of things that action points can be spent on, ranging from 'host a party in this territory' to 'smite the army that's attacking this territory' and more; taking an action in a territory adds a certain amount of faith to that territory, and also has another effect at the same time, for example adding or removing followers ('host a party' adds, I think; plagues remove), creating a new acolyte unit, or downgrading an attacking army unit to the next smallest size.
- Army units come in sizes, not types; they're created by spending a certain number of action points to convert a certain number of followers in a territory into the relevant sort of unit - for example spending 6 action points and 6 (or 9, or 12, this needs balancing) followers to get a size-three squadron, which is the largest.
- Army units can move into other players' territory, but each player can only have one military unit in a given territory (even their own) at any one time.
- An army unit can - but doesn't have to - attack once for each point of size it has per turn, or if it doesn't attack at all it can move from the territory it's in to an adjacent one. Attacks happen at the very end of an attacking player's turn, after all other actions.
- Attacking involves rolling two dice; the larger of the two numbers is subtracted from the attacked territory's faith and the smaller number is subtracted from the attacked territory's population.
- Alternately, an army unit can defend the territory it's in from a different player's unit; defending is also done by rolling two dice, and the defending player can subtract the resulting two numbers from the attacker's rolls as they see fit; if both numbers are higher than the attacking army's numbers, the attacking army's size is reduced by one, and if both numbers are smaller than the attacking army's numbers, the defending army's size is reduced by one. (So, if the attacking army rolls a 2 and a 3, and the defending army rolls a 1 and a 2, the defending player could defend their population with the 2 and their faith with the 1, meaning they lose 2 points of faith, or they could defend their population with the 1 and their faith with the 2, meaning that they lose 1 point of population, 1 point of faith, and 1 point of size from the defending army since 1<2 and 2<3.) Defending a territory is similar to attacking; each military unit can defend once per point of size, and if that unit attacked at the end of its player's last turn (for example if two players both have units attacking a third player's territory and one of them cares about making the killing blow) those attacks count against the number of times it can defend. (Yes, you can defend a territory that doesn't belong to you! If two players both want to defend against the same attack, they can do that; both sets of defending-action numbers get subtracted from the attacker's roll, and these subtractions are counted separately for the purposes of deciding whether an army is damaged.)
- When an army unit is in a territory that isn't controlled by any player (most territories start like this and it's also what happens when a territory's population is wiped out), it can be disbanded to claim that territory for the player that controls it. The newly-controlled territory starts out with however many followers are required to create an army unit of the disbanded one's size and an equal amount of faith. (It's a good idea to have a second army unit in an adjacent square ready to move in and defend them - remember you can only have one army unit in any given territory.)
- Priests cost a substantial number of action points to make, but a territory with a priest in it counts double when calculating action points. Each priest can move to an adjacent player-held territory once per turn. If a priest is in a territory that's under attack, the priest can be sacrificed to nullify the effects of one attack.
- Acolytes can move through 1d5 territories per turn, including through territories held by other players. A player can use actions on a territory with their acolyte in it as if that territory was their own - otherwise a player can only act on their own territories - and some actions require the acolyte be present in the chosen territory even if the player controls it. An acolyte in a territory held by its player automatically nullifies one attack per round.
- Players can't create or convert followers or faith in territories they don't control, with one exception - if a player does an action to a territory that would generate more faith for them than that territory has for its existing owner, the whole territory converts to being theirs; the number of followers stays the same (but their loyalty switches) but the amount of faith determined by the converting action. Military units and acolytes retain their loyalty to their original player, but there's a separate action to convert an army unit's loyalty on a round when this happens; if a territory with a priest in it is converted, the player whose territory was converted can either move the priest to a neighboring territory that they control or sacrifice the priest to take an action that has a chance of re-converting the territory back to them.
There are some obvious holes in that, still - I have no idea how players make or kill acolytes, but I think both actions should be possible, among other things - but it looks like a start to me.
Having mulled it over a bit, here's some rules that seem to make sense to me:
- Each territory contains a certain number of followers, up to some medium-sized number like 20 or 40. These aren't represented individually for the most part, but with coinlike counters - there are counters for 5, 10, and possibly 20 followers, and the remainder are noted using a d5 (the game is played all with d5s, right, am I misremembering that?) with the relevant number showing. It may also contain special units - armies, priests, and acolytes - belonging to various players.
- Each territory also contains a certain amount of faith, which is also represented using coinlike counters; there is no upper limit to the amount of faith a particular bit of territory can contain. If the number of faith points is lower than than the number of followers at the beginning of the player's turn, followers will leave to make up the difference (they move to adjacent territories, if they can, following certain rules about which ones they prefer; otherwise they disappear); if no followers remain in the territory, the player doesn't control it any more and any other player can move in.
- Players can spend 5 faith points from a territory to add one follower to that territory, as many times as they want during the main portion of their turn.
- At the beginning of their turn, each player gets a number of action points (which very much need a better name than that) equal to the number of followers they have. There is a list of things that action points can be spent on, ranging from 'host a party in this territory' to 'smite the army that's attacking this territory' and more; taking an action in a territory adds a certain amount of faith to that territory, and also has another effect at the same time, for example adding or removing followers ('host a party' adds, I think; plagues remove), creating a new acolyte unit, or downgrading an attacking army unit to the next smallest size.
- Army units come in sizes, not types; they're created by spending a certain number of action points to convert a certain number of followers in a territory into the relevant sort of unit - for example spending 6 action points and 6 (or 9, or 12, this needs balancing) followers to get a size-three squadron, which is the largest.
- Army units can move into other players' territory, but each player can only have one military unit in a given territory (even their own) at any one time.
- An army unit can - but doesn't have to - attack once for each point of size it has per turn, or if it doesn't attack at all it can move from the territory it's in to an adjacent one. Attacks happen at the very end of an attacking player's turn, after all other actions.
- Attacking involves rolling two dice; the larger of the two numbers is subtracted from the attacked territory's faith and the smaller number is subtracted from the attacked territory's population.
- Alternately, an army unit can defend the territory it's in from a different player's unit; defending is also done by rolling two dice, and the defending player can subtract the resulting two numbers from the attacker's rolls as they see fit; if both numbers are higher than the attacking army's numbers, the attacking army's size is reduced by one, and if both numbers are smaller than the attacking army's numbers, the defending army's size is reduced by one. (So, if the attacking army rolls a 2 and a 3, and the defending army rolls a 1 and a 2, the defending player could defend their population with the 2 and their faith with the 1, meaning they lose 2 points of faith, or they could defend their population with the 1 and their faith with the 2, meaning that they lose 1 point of population, 1 point of faith, and 1 point of size from the defending army since 1<2 and 2<3.) Defending a territory is similar to attacking; each military unit can defend once per point of size, and if that unit attacked at the end of its player's last turn (for example if two players both have units attacking a third player's territory and one of them cares about making the killing blow) those attacks count against the number of times it can defend. (Yes, you can defend a territory that doesn't belong to you! If two players both want to defend against the same attack, they can do that; both sets of defending-action numbers get subtracted from the attacker's roll, and these subtractions are counted separately for the purposes of deciding whether an army is damaged.)
- When an army unit is in a territory that isn't controlled by any player (most territories start like this and it's also what happens when a territory's population is wiped out), it can be disbanded to claim that territory for the player that controls it. The newly-controlled territory starts out with however many followers are required to create an army unit of the disbanded one's size and an equal amount of faith. (It's a good idea to have a second army unit in an adjacent square ready to move in and defend them - remember you can only have one army unit in any given territory.)
- Priests cost a substantial number of action points to make, but a territory with a priest in it counts double when calculating action points. Each priest can move to an adjacent player-held territory once per turn. If a priest is in a territory that's under attack, the priest can be sacrificed to nullify the effects of one attack.
- Acolytes can move through 1d5 territories per turn, including through territories held by other players. A player can use actions on a territory with their acolyte in it as if that territory was their own - otherwise a player can only act on their own territories - and some actions require the acolyte be present in the chosen territory even if the player controls it. An acolyte in a territory held by its player automatically nullifies one attack per round.
- Players can't create or convert followers or faith in territories they don't control, with one exception - if a player does an action to a territory that would generate more faith for them than that territory has for its existing owner, the whole territory converts to being theirs; the number of followers stays the same (but their loyalty switches) but the amount of faith determined by the converting action. Military units and acolytes retain their loyalty to their original player, but there's a separate action to convert an army unit's loyalty on a round when this happens; if a territory with a priest in it is converted, the player whose territory was converted can either move the priest to a neighboring territory that they control or sacrifice the priest to take an action that has a chance of re-converting the territory back to them.
There are some obvious holes in that, still - I have no idea how players make or kill acolytes, but I think both actions should be possible, among other things - but it looks like a start to me.
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Kappa
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Re: The Pantheon Game
Nifty, Ade!
Thoughts on making and killing acolytes:
You probably need either another acolyte, or a really lucky priest, to kill an acolyte.
Making an acolyte probably requires an amount of action points equal to or greater than what you need to make a priest, plus needs - but does not spend - some threshold of faith points in the territory where the acolyte is being produced.
Thoughts on making and killing acolytes:
You probably need either another acolyte, or a really lucky priest, to kill an acolyte.
Making an acolyte probably requires an amount of action points equal to or greater than what you need to make a priest, plus needs - but does not spend - some threshold of faith points in the territory where the acolyte is being produced.
Re: The Pantheon Game
I think making an acolyte needs to spend something beyond just action points, since those refresh every turn and it really doesn't make sense to be able to make an acolyte every turn even near the end of the game. I'm not sure what, though, there's nothing obvious in what I have laid out so far. (I forgot to specify - action points aren't supposed to roll over between turns, you get a fresh set each time.) Possibly action points can be converted to another sort of pseudocurrency, and making an acolyte costs a certain amount of that plus an extra amount for each acolyte you already have?
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PlainDealingVillain
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Re: The Pantheon Game
This sounds... messy. Definitely not the kind of thing Spring could pick up in her first game (even if she picks up games quickly). Here's how I, personally, would streamline it:
- Tracking followers and faith separately, and individually for each territory, would be annoying. Make faith global. Followers losing faith could be done some other way; probably you need to spend a certain amount of faith every turn in each space or your followers will get depleted. Spaces with priests in them wouldn't get depleted. This would also serve as a pseudocurrency and would handle acolytes nicely. (Bonus: This matches the description of Pantheon gods more closely, I think.)
- Converting between followers and armies also seems like a hassle. Make followers able to move, in a group, and treat that as an army (maybe have a flag or something to show they're far from home, or not even that). Followers which don't get sent off as armies would generate faith or do other things.
- Keeping track of how many actions you have in a turn also seems like a hassle. It seems better to have faith thresholds and costs (and/or other costs), and you have limited actions in practice because there are risks for your faith dropping too low. This could work even if faith stays local, though you'd need some way to shove faith around from place to place.
- Making a priest would cost a follower and some faith, and would need a certain number of followers in the space you're ordaining them. Making acolytes would require more faith (and like Ade suggested, more the more you have already), but be easier in places you had a priest. It's probably cleaner if this needs a certain number of followers around as well; it doesn't match with things like how Idania got acolyted, but it's the more ordinary way.
Last edited by PlainDealingVillain on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Pantheon Game
- How I was doing it, faith is supposed to be like a defense stat; tracking it on a per-territory basis allows for visibly weaker and stronger areas, which seems important to me.
- Follower count technically occurs at the start of your turn, but there's no way to increase the faith in a particular area when it's not your turn, so in practice you can just move/remove them when the faith in an area dips too low and keep a running tally of your total count.
- Follower count technically occurs at the start of your turn, but there's no way to increase the faith in a particular area when it's not your turn, so in practice you can just move/remove them when the faith in an area dips too low and keep a running tally of your total count.
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Bluelantern
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Re: The Pantheon Game
Something I am not sure if it is part of the game, but should there be such things as temples? What are the benefits, if any, of having more than one priest-per-territory?PlainDealingVillain wrote:This sounds... messy. Definitely not the kind of thing Spring could pick up in her first game (even if she picks up games quickly). Here's how I, personally, would streamline it:
- Tracking followers and faith separately, and individually for each territory, would be annoying. Make faith global. Followers losing faith could be done some other way; probably you need to spend a certain amount of faith every turn in each space or your followers will get depleted. Spaces with priests in them wouldn't get depleted. This would also serve as a pseudocurrency and would handle acolytes nicely. (Bonus: This matches the description of Pantheon gods more closely, I think.)
Acolytes (who probably have high mobility anyway) might have anti faith-depletion effect in all territories they have simply walked through in the last turn but tha sounds like it is hard to track. Alternatively, the Acolyte anti-depletion works on all territories around him?
Sorry for my bad english
"Yambe Akka take the stars, they’re zombies!" - Isabella Amariah
"Yambe Akka take the stars, they’re zombies!" - Isabella Amariah
Re: The Pantheon Game
The only benefit I had in mind for having more than one priest in a territory is that the territory is better defended, and even that is very much a secondary effect - you're not really supposed to have a bunch of priests all in one place, the fact that they even can double up is mostly so you don't automatically lose them if you come to have fewer territories than priests.
Temples - I had forgotten about temples as such, actually, and the 'priests double AP gain' was meant to represent the locals being able to leave offerings at one.
I don't think acolytes should have an effect on territories other than the one they're in, but if they do I think they need to have a set amount of maximum move rather than a rolled one.
Temples - I had forgotten about temples as such, actually, and the 'priests double AP gain' was meant to represent the locals being able to leave offerings at one.
I don't think acolytes should have an effect on territories other than the one they're in, but if they do I think they need to have a set amount of maximum move rather than a rolled one.
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