Questions about Visitor

[Alicorn]

Orders cannot change your actual felt desires, but they can cause you to perform any voluntary-as-normally-construed action. For example, in the Arcane Elcenia sandbox he could make Keo let him out of the circle even though this requires voluntary action; he could have made her adjust the (will-controlled) lights or wards, too; but he could not have made her come up as honest on a lie detection spell if he'd made her claim she did those things because she wanted to.

[Kappa]

Then I think a frostvane with inviolate form can only change their form if their actual felt desires see the new form as an unambiguous improvement.

I suppose this means that it's possible to turn an inviolate-form frostvane into a frog if you first use mental sorcery to make them unconflictedly want to be a frog. But I think I'm okay with that.

...also, the Gregor template is now arguing with the Aral template in my head and it is hilarious to watch.

Serene: "I need a court sorcerer I can trust, someone who can be my right hand."
Arals: "No."
Serene: "I have very few other options."
Arals: "Still no."
Serene: "It's this or I go ask the Miles template."
Arals: "...You fight dirty."
Serene: "Yes I do."

[DanielH]

Was I right that Arcane wouldn’t be able to order Keo to accept a syllable from his name?

On a mostly unrelated note, why do fairies never go to the mortal world deliberately? You could get any number of vassals, you could be fed by them safely, and you could get a court larger than anybody but the Queen could manage, much more easily than she got hers.

[Alicorn]

Arcane cannot order Keo to accept a syllable from his name because the minute a would-be syllable giver even brings up the idea it can no longer work; the dragon has to ask.

Only sorcerers can go to the mortal world readily and they don't want to lose sorcery, as a general rule. Also, it's dangerous. Also, how do you know they don't?

[DanielH]

I know they don’t do it as often as I’d expect because I would expect they would have failed at hiding more than they have. And anybody with a sorcerous vassal can go to the mortal world, including (e.g.) Yellow (who would not have succeeded at secrecy very well).

Is it that a dragon must ask of their own free will, or that the dragon must come up with the idea of them asking a specific person? What about if a third party suggests asking somebody else for a syllable? How does this work with dragon weddings, where trading syllables is expected? I suppose this is getting away from the fairy topic now, though.

[Nemo]

What are the limits on what counts as an "aspect" for a frostvane? If one had inviolate self-determination, or will, or freedom, could they be immune to orders? Some large subset of orders?

[Kappa]

I believe kind magics can't override legitimate orders (although they can evidently alter the conditions for vassalization).

I don't have any frostvane powers firmly decided on except for Inkwell's (she finally picked a nickname!) inviolate memory.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for a frostvane's inviolate aspect to be such that they can't be vassalized (perhaps they would indeed render this as "inviolate freedom"), but I don't know if that would be too powerful for the somewhat-unspecified rarity of the kind.

[DanielH]

[Marri quoted the first part of this post over in Sandbox Discussion, which is closer to where this belongs. I think other responses should probably take place there too.]

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I would think that a frostvane who can’t be vassalized would probably be a bit too powerful, but both “inviolate form” and “inviolate memory” both also seem quite powerful.

[Ezra]

Inviolate authority - gives orders that can't be countermanded by anyone else? Or is that too outside-the-self?

If it's not a plausible frostvane power, is it a plausible kind magic for another kind?

[Bluelantern]

Inviolate authority - gives orders that can't be countermanded by anyone else? Or is that too outside-the-self?

If it's not a plausible frostvane power, is it a plausible kind magic for another kind?

To make it less powerfull: Orders can be countered if the frostvane is that master vassal (aka a higher authority counters this Power)?