Yay, someone else verifies my countdown!
The thing that I wondered about kappa swearing on his mother's grave is that like... is her mother dead? Should we be sympathetic? Suspicious? :P
(Though I think Ivan would think he was in a weird rock garden in an Earth cemetery, too; doesn't Barrayar do graves differently?)
Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
Right then, I found this delightful gift of the random number god on my phone, and failed to sleep it off. Forgive me if the following is a bit sleep deprived and rambly.
We will be ignoring my general dislike of day 1 random killings. I've made my point reasonably clear. I understand the other side of the fence, but I doubt any of us could convince each other that way, so I won't bother. Screw the 'we're here to have fun, dying before night even hits is hardly fun' argument too, because I highly doubt that would get anywhere.
No, let's be calculating about this.
I think you shouldn't kill me, because I'm reasonably useful, even without powers. Useful as in thoughtful, useful as in well spoken, useful as in logical, useful as in, hate to sound arrogant, but smart. I think you shouldn't kill me because even when I'm stupid I'm upfront and logical about it. I think you shouldn't kill me because Alicorn admitted that our roles are not up to the random number god, but picked based on what would be interesting and unexpected. I think I admitted publicly that I would make a good mafia member, so why the hell would Alicorn make me one when I said so myself? Unless you want to play the reverse psychology game, in which case, I'll pack you a lunchbox because you're not getting out of that vortex for a while. If you've watched Princess Bride, think Wesley and his poison, how they played mind games for a while and not only was it all fundamentally wrong, but it was a waste of time. I think you shouldn't try to kill me to see me do interesting things because it's actually kind of difficult to get me to crack under pressure, even when I'm sleep deprived and annoyed and cranky. And of course I'll just write long essays anyway, when I think it's appropriate. You don't even have to poke me with a stick, I'll tap dance on my own time without prompting.
I think unjustified bandwagons like this are stupid when we're a nasty mix of inexperienced and in the dark. Mafiascum says it's a great strategy, but mafiascum would jump down our throats and screech 'scum, scum, you're all acting like scum!' at the first opportunity. Declare us all scum based off of little things we've said, kill us all, and also likely get it wrong. As lovely as it is to listen to a wiki, this isn't the sort of game where you can play it paint by numbers. There is no one golden solution, and I think if there were one, it wouldn't be a day one killing. Last game it nearly got BSS, and BSS was instrumental in winning that game. It might have been possible to win without her, mind, and I'm not even saying I'm as useful as she was, though I do think I'm objectively useful enough to live past day one. I'm saying that in a game with 19 people, 3-5 are likely to be killers, and you have overwhelming odds to nail the wrong person. I'm saying that I am that wrong person.
You tackle a method like it's the solution, but there isn't one. I'm sorry, this is a messy game of liars and cheats, there is no easy way to fix it. Bandwagoning me day one is a decent way to get me to talk, I admit, but I think we're all aware from last game that there's likely nothing on Earth that could get me to permanently shut up, even when it's in my best interest. I'm kind of stupid that way.
Bark up another tree and see if you find the scum hiding up there, I'm going to bed.
We will be ignoring my general dislike of day 1 random killings. I've made my point reasonably clear. I understand the other side of the fence, but I doubt any of us could convince each other that way, so I won't bother. Screw the 'we're here to have fun, dying before night even hits is hardly fun' argument too, because I highly doubt that would get anywhere.
No, let's be calculating about this.
I think you shouldn't kill me, because I'm reasonably useful, even without powers. Useful as in thoughtful, useful as in well spoken, useful as in logical, useful as in, hate to sound arrogant, but smart. I think you shouldn't kill me because even when I'm stupid I'm upfront and logical about it. I think you shouldn't kill me because Alicorn admitted that our roles are not up to the random number god, but picked based on what would be interesting and unexpected. I think I admitted publicly that I would make a good mafia member, so why the hell would Alicorn make me one when I said so myself? Unless you want to play the reverse psychology game, in which case, I'll pack you a lunchbox because you're not getting out of that vortex for a while. If you've watched Princess Bride, think Wesley and his poison, how they played mind games for a while and not only was it all fundamentally wrong, but it was a waste of time. I think you shouldn't try to kill me to see me do interesting things because it's actually kind of difficult to get me to crack under pressure, even when I'm sleep deprived and annoyed and cranky. And of course I'll just write long essays anyway, when I think it's appropriate. You don't even have to poke me with a stick, I'll tap dance on my own time without prompting.
I think unjustified bandwagons like this are stupid when we're a nasty mix of inexperienced and in the dark. Mafiascum says it's a great strategy, but mafiascum would jump down our throats and screech 'scum, scum, you're all acting like scum!' at the first opportunity. Declare us all scum based off of little things we've said, kill us all, and also likely get it wrong. As lovely as it is to listen to a wiki, this isn't the sort of game where you can play it paint by numbers. There is no one golden solution, and I think if there were one, it wouldn't be a day one killing. Last game it nearly got BSS, and BSS was instrumental in winning that game. It might have been possible to win without her, mind, and I'm not even saying I'm as useful as she was, though I do think I'm objectively useful enough to live past day one. I'm saying that in a game with 19 people, 3-5 are likely to be killers, and you have overwhelming odds to nail the wrong person. I'm saying that I am that wrong person.
You tackle a method like it's the solution, but there isn't one. I'm sorry, this is a messy game of liars and cheats, there is no easy way to fix it. Bandwagoning me day one is a decent way to get me to talk, I admit, but I think we're all aware from last game that there's likely nothing on Earth that could get me to permanently shut up, even when it's in my best interest. I'm kind of stupid that way.
Bark up another tree and see if you find the scum hiding up there, I'm going to bed.
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Tamien
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
Hmmm... it is true that Aestrix is useful because she talks a lot about her thoughts (I was kindof frustrated last game by how reticent everyone was) and is logical and intelligent in laying them out so that if you disagree with her you can find out why. Because of this I am reluctant to kill her - I'd like to keep active players around, because the game is more fun when you have enough information to form motivated opinions :P
Thinking about it, I feel like most scum would frame their arguments more as gut feelings, because those don't need as much explanation and are harder to argue against. So even if Aestrix is scum, I think she's less dangerous scum than scum that sits around being quiet or vaguely accusing people, because her talking a lot should make it easier to tell when she is saying things only scum would say?
...On the other hand, I never really had the experience of finding Aestrix scummy last game, because I investigated her super early on and thus was able to read all of her stuff thereafter in the most charitable light. So maybe I am not good at telling how scummy Aestrix appears. I donno. I kinda wanna change my vote but there is no better option yet. Everyone else, talk more :P
Thinking about it, I feel like most scum would frame their arguments more as gut feelings, because those don't need as much explanation and are harder to argue against. So even if Aestrix is scum, I think she's less dangerous scum than scum that sits around being quiet or vaguely accusing people, because her talking a lot should make it easier to tell when she is saying things only scum would say?
...On the other hand, I never really had the experience of finding Aestrix scummy last game, because I investigated her super early on and thus was able to read all of her stuff thereafter in the most charitable light. So maybe I am not good at telling how scummy Aestrix appears. I donno. I kinda wanna change my vote but there is no better option yet. Everyone else, talk more :P
Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
Your reasoning about not lynching our better players, and you being one of them, sounds good. However, if you are scum, you being intelligent makes it even more important to lynch you soon. I’m much more likely to be swayed by the argument you glossed over, about “we’re playing for fun and it’s not fun to be lynched on day 1”; I made that point myself before roles even came out.
So, I’ll ask you this. Assuming you can’t persuade us to do a No Lynch, what positive course of action would you recommend? We don’t have much if any information about role assignments other than our own; we only have information about the players. Taking your line of reasoning to an extreme, what you posted is an argument for lynching the players who are the poorest at the game. This will, on average, increase the ability of both the town and the scum; it is potentially a good strategy as far as getting decent-sounding advice goes, but doesn’t seem like it will actually lead to a win (and is even less fun than random Day 1 lynches for the targets: all the injury of random day 1 lynching, plus insult of “you aren’t very good at this game”, plus “you don’t have the chance to gain experience”).
You told us not to vote for you even if we do have a day 1 lynch. What should we do instead?
So, I’ll ask you this. Assuming you can’t persuade us to do a No Lynch, what positive course of action would you recommend? We don’t have much if any information about role assignments other than our own; we only have information about the players. Taking your line of reasoning to an extreme, what you posted is an argument for lynching the players who are the poorest at the game. This will, on average, increase the ability of both the town and the scum; it is potentially a good strategy as far as getting decent-sounding advice goes, but doesn’t seem like it will actually lead to a win (and is even less fun than random Day 1 lynches for the targets: all the injury of random day 1 lynching, plus insult of “you aren’t very good at this game”, plus “you don’t have the chance to gain experience”).
You told us not to vote for you even if we do have a day 1 lynch. What should we do instead?
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MTC
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
It’s probably about time for me to make a post, to not look like I’m avoiding posting (my default state is lurking, I’m going to have to supress that in order to play mafia properly), I wouldn’t want to be the last player who hasn’t posted. So, hi. I’ve never played mafia before but I’ve watched a few online games of it and I’d like to think I’ve picked up enough useful strategy that I won’t be among the worst mafia players.
All this talk of randomizing targets is probably distracting from what seems like it would be more useful: speculating about what roles and powers might exist in Elcenia mafia. If everyone contributes and includes their own role among their speculation (even without specifying which one it is), we will at least have every town role included in that speculation, and probably some of the scum roles too (through a combination of good guessing and maybe scum deciding to include their real roles among their public speculation). Anticipating one of the arguments against this (it was raised as an argument during the Effulgence game): Yes, this can benefit scum as well as town. I think that trade‐off is probably pro‐town. That all said, I’m willing to listen to arguments from experienced players who think that random targeting is better than public role speculation.
Having typed all that, I realize that it may look like I’m falsely dichotomizing random targeting and public role speculation. Of course, it is possible to do both, but so far I’ve seen a lot of the former and very little of the latter.
All this talk of randomizing targets is probably distracting from what seems like it would be more useful: speculating about what roles and powers might exist in Elcenia mafia. If everyone contributes and includes their own role among their speculation (even without specifying which one it is), we will at least have every town role included in that speculation, and probably some of the scum roles too (through a combination of good guessing and maybe scum deciding to include their real roles among their public speculation). Anticipating one of the arguments against this (it was raised as an argument during the Effulgence game): Yes, this can benefit scum as well as town. I think that trade‐off is probably pro‐town. That all said, I’m willing to listen to arguments from experienced players who think that random targeting is better than public role speculation.
Having typed all that, I realize that it may look like I’m falsely dichotomizing random targeting and public role speculation. Of course, it is possible to do both, but so far I’ve seen a lot of the former and very little of the latter.
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jalapeno_dude
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
I did not actually precommit to voting for the result of the RNG, so I feel no particular obligation to vote for Aestrix. In the last game I was certain Aestrix was mafia for a long time, and turned out to be incorrect (to my misfortune--if I had killed her when I was let out, the killers would have been in a much better situation since they would have started to get 2 kills/night), so I don't think I can trust my gut reactions here. I agree with Aestrix that we are seeing classic unjustified bandwagoning here, though thankfully it seems to have slowed down before it could go out of control (Alicorn, is the 3/4 of votes for one person ending the day early rule in effect right now? I hope it isn't, to give people time for discussion.).
I would also like to know your answer to DanielH's question.
I would also like to know your answer to DanielH's question.
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Alicorn
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
Preponderances of votes will not end the day early. I'm going for predictable day/night cycles this time, we'll see how it goes.
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Tamien
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
MTC, I'd love to speculate on roles but I have only read Summons and some of the Elcenia sandboxen, and not even very recently (I'm starting Blood right now to try to give myself some ground to stand on). Characters that my familiarity with Elcenia allows me to name: Rhysel, Keo, Leekath... um. Saasnil and Korulen. Um. I feel like I should be able to name the romantic interests of those first three, plus a few other side characters, but I'm only getting character concepts and not names.
Rolespec:
Rhysel - I do not at all remember what her power allows, besides her being good at sculpture using this to build a house, and being able to make those teleportation-nexus-thingies. My instinct says something like a Doctor role, but probably there is someone that would be more appropriate for (are there any named Lights?)
Keo - probably an investigative role of some sort, but would have to be majorly nerfed. Might have a private comms channel with her spouse, because mindlink?
Leekath - another option for an investigative role, maybe letting her find out the previous night action of someone by listening to their clothes or something?
Saasnil/Korulen - no ideas, accidentally summoning random people does not seem like a thing that could easily translate. I would kindof expect them to exist, but maybe as unpowered townies?
Random shren - maybe some sort of immunity power, since they are sortof immune to pain?
Keo's brother whose name I forget - could be in a lovers situation with that kidnapped ex of his? Like maybe his wincon is to figure out which of us is her and protect her.
Random wolfrider person - I don't really remember how the wolf people work, but perhaps they could sortof escape death on account of having two bodies? What happens to a wolf person if half of them dies?
Rolespec:
Rhysel - I do not at all remember what her power allows, besides her being good at sculpture using this to build a house, and being able to make those teleportation-nexus-thingies. My instinct says something like a Doctor role, but probably there is someone that would be more appropriate for (are there any named Lights?)
Keo - probably an investigative role of some sort, but would have to be majorly nerfed. Might have a private comms channel with her spouse, because mindlink?
Leekath - another option for an investigative role, maybe letting her find out the previous night action of someone by listening to their clothes or something?
Saasnil/Korulen - no ideas, accidentally summoning random people does not seem like a thing that could easily translate. I would kindof expect them to exist, but maybe as unpowered townies?
Random shren - maybe some sort of immunity power, since they are sortof immune to pain?
Keo's brother whose name I forget - could be in a lovers situation with that kidnapped ex of his? Like maybe his wincon is to figure out which of us is her and protect her.
Random wolfrider person - I don't really remember how the wolf people work, but perhaps they could sortof escape death on account of having two bodies? What happens to a wolf person if half of them dies?
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pistachi0n
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
A Talyn would also be an investigative role. Maybe being able to learn the details of someone's power? Similar to Addy in the last game but without being able to actually use the power.
I could see Hallai as having some sort of vote-influencing power. Stealing votes? Being able to block a vote?
I could see Hallai as having some sort of vote-influencing power. Stealing votes? Being able to block a vote?
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MTC
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Re: Elcenia Mafia Game Thread
Some speculation from me then:
(I have read all of the Elcenia stories at least once.)
Because the initial victim was described as a “promising wizard/kama”, this game almost certainly includes both Elcenian and Barashin elements.
When an Elcenian dragon “dies” in a different form, they just lose the form and revert, maybe all the dragons get to tank at least one kill?
Arylla – possible killer?
Ehail – vanilla?
Finnah – vanilla?
Gyre – vanilla?
Hallai – possible killer or cult leader, maybe with an extra goal related to Ilen. pistachi0n’s idea that she’s a vote stealer sounds right too. I could also see her with a Sherlock‐ish role to protect Ilen, though that might unfairly stack if I’m right about dragons above.
Ilen – vanilla but with a goal related to Hallai?
Kanaat – private communication with Keo, probably included specifically for this reason.
Kaylo – I think he’ll have Addy’s role minus the copying, because I think he has to have some kind of power, he’s good at analysis spells (along with many other things) and he’s very interested in different types of magic.
Keo – Investigative role probably, private communication channel with Kanaat. If there’s a cult based on dragon mind magic, Keo’s probably immune.
Leekath – Possibly an investigative role. I think between Keo and Leekath there would be one who identifies character names and one who identifies affiliations, but I’m not sure which would be which. Then again, I was wrong about this last game when I thought both Charlie and Sherlock would have investigative roles. Tamien’s idea about previous night actions sounds plausible as an alternative for Leekath.
Korulen – vanilla?
Mallyn – private communication channel with Rithka?
Narax – he’s a wizard with high CC, maybe he gets double voting? Possibly a goal related to Samia.
Rhysel – if Narax doesn’t get double voting, maybe Rhysel will, for similar reasons to Bell having it in the last game?
Rithka – private communication channel with Mallyn?
Saasnil – vanilla?
Samia – possible killer (I am aware that she may not be evil enough to be a killer, but I’m having trouble thinking of plausible killers…), maybe a goal related to Narax.
Sashpark – vanilla?
Talyn – Something related to being an innate kama? I seem to be unable think of a way to translate that into a mafia power.
(I have read all of the Elcenia stories at least once.)
Because the initial victim was described as a “promising wizard/kama”, this game almost certainly includes both Elcenian and Barashin elements.
When an Elcenian dragon “dies” in a different form, they just lose the form and revert, maybe all the dragons get to tank at least one kill?
Arylla – possible killer?
Ehail – vanilla?
Finnah – vanilla?
Gyre – vanilla?
Hallai – possible killer or cult leader, maybe with an extra goal related to Ilen. pistachi0n’s idea that she’s a vote stealer sounds right too. I could also see her with a Sherlock‐ish role to protect Ilen, though that might unfairly stack if I’m right about dragons above.
Ilen – vanilla but with a goal related to Hallai?
Kanaat – private communication with Keo, probably included specifically for this reason.
Kaylo – I think he’ll have Addy’s role minus the copying, because I think he has to have some kind of power, he’s good at analysis spells (along with many other things) and he’s very interested in different types of magic.
Keo – Investigative role probably, private communication channel with Kanaat. If there’s a cult based on dragon mind magic, Keo’s probably immune.
Leekath – Possibly an investigative role. I think between Keo and Leekath there would be one who identifies character names and one who identifies affiliations, but I’m not sure which would be which. Then again, I was wrong about this last game when I thought both Charlie and Sherlock would have investigative roles. Tamien’s idea about previous night actions sounds plausible as an alternative for Leekath.
Korulen – vanilla?
Mallyn – private communication channel with Rithka?
Narax – he’s a wizard with high CC, maybe he gets double voting? Possibly a goal related to Samia.
Rhysel – if Narax doesn’t get double voting, maybe Rhysel will, for similar reasons to Bell having it in the last game?
Rithka – private communication channel with Mallyn?
Saasnil – vanilla?
Samia – possible killer (I am aware that she may not be evil enough to be a killer, but I’m having trouble thinking of plausible killers…), maybe a goal related to Narax.
Sashpark – vanilla?
Talyn – Something related to being an innate kama? I seem to be unable think of a way to translate that into a mafia power.