Alicornutopia

Heh.

I think maybe what's going on here is that I'm taking a somewhat longer view and I have access to information you don't. Out of the whole Joker life cycle, the parts where they strongly tend to react in the ways you're talking about are not a majority. The negative reaction to attempted coercion is pretty much a constant, but it's pretty easy to get around that by not trying to coerce them. Negative reactions to being ignored by people they have strong feelings for are mostly a thing in the first few phases. Negative reactions to responsibility are possible in most of the earlier phases, but get less likely as you go along. War's reaction to responsibility is the likeliest outcome for a Joker who's far enough into their wandering phase, and even most pre-wandering Jokers have a reasonable chance of coming down on that side under pressure. (The major exception is Kas, who is at a point in his life where his reaction to any kind of significant extra stress will probably be to fling himself into the sun.)

My safety rating of all the currently unpealed Jokers, relationship-wise, would run as follows:

Aelare: No danger. Virtually guaranteed to pull a War under responsibility; relatedly, will have bigger things on his mind in case of breakup.
Trouble: Very little danger, but he's a B-cluster, so he is extra sensitive to the things Jokers are sensitive to. Slated to deal well with responsibility as soon as he gets up to speed phase-wise. Probably wouldn't deal well emotionally with a breakup, but wouldn't take it out on the ex-partner in question.
Jade: Pretty much no danger. Might crumple under responsibility, but might pull through; would probably bounce back from a breakup, but might handle it poorly (where "poorly" means "with arson and yelling") if it hit her in exactly the wrong way.
Winter: Stay away. Far away. Red alert. Do not engage. It's theoretically possible for someone to deal healthily with him, but it would pretty much have to be either another Joker or someone who fit the template perfectly.
Mercy: No danger. I can't get much more specific because Circle is pending a reboot, but I know he's likelier to handle responsibility well than otherwise.
Feral: No danger. Good chances with responsibility; good chances of handling a breakup well, and in his case "poorly" would mainly mean lots of crying.
Loel: No danger. He's already in his "handling responsibility well" state, and being in that state makes him particularly unsusceptible to Joker Bad Breakup Outcomes.
Cindy: No danger - observe how he's acting around Batman, even. He's heading into retiree phase already.
Lalita: No danger. He's past the phase where responsibility is a potential problem, and I assure you he has already lost plenty of partners and he handled it just fine.
Jun: No danger. Like Lalita, he's already hit the final phase.

And as a summary of all the pealed Jokers - all of them in relationships with Bells would be unhappy if the Bell in question left them, but their reactions would range from "fling self into sun" (Kas) through "weep inconsolably" (Alice, Micaiah, Nona) to "be sad and then get on with life" (War). No widespread destruction would be involved in any case. (Aianon and Ansharil are left off this list because it is strictly impossible for Sarion to break up with them and would almost certainly kill them if she somehow managed it, so they would not have much of a chance to react per se.)

I mean, I'm not saying you should definitely date a Joker or anything, you'd know better than I would whether or not you'd get along. But I would like to offer accurate information on which to base your assessments. XD

Yeah. I can only evaluate based on things I have seen :)
This does apply to Bell as well thou.
Eggshell walking is only cancelled if it can be predicted Jokers can cope and predicting Jokers is difficult without narrative sight.
I would be more comfortable after Glass gives her OK.

Note that Kas reaction would feel like coersion to me if I could predict it while in relationship.
I had a girlfriend that was institutionalized after the break-up and I am very wary of potential partners who might react in similar way.

Also: pre post-scarcity arson can be likened to homicide. (Burned hospital will not treat people. Burned housing will result in homelessness will result in shorter life. etc.)

On the one hand, I wouldn't recommend that anyone date Kas, because he has had most of his ability to cope with things shot out from under him by all that time spent missing Amariah and not knowing when she'd be back, and now he is one medium-sized crisis away from sun-flinging. On the other hand, I think a Joker would argue that from their perspective, flinging themselves into the sun is an acceptable outcome. It's not great, but it's okay. Better than imprisonment on an asteroid. And one of the major advantages of flinging themselves into the sun in the present circumstances is that they can be fairly sure another Joker will be along at some point to fish them out and snuggle them. XD

This reminds me of something I've been noticing. I think that as I'm playing more and more jokers, all of them - even the new ones with no strict causal reason for it - are getting observably better at predicting themselves. I think that's because the major limitation on their ability to do that has always been my ability to do that, and with more examples to go on, I'm getting better and better. So predicting Jokers - on the broader level of 'how well will they cope with X'; predicting Jokers in detail is frequently strictly impossible - doesn't have to be that hard these days as long as you're willing to take their word for things.

Huh, I fall at an angle to modrony, in that I also disprefer the more codependent relationships (I think that might be a large part of what I was trying to get at earlier with the needy insecure feeling that I get from the "stable" Bell relationships), but at the same time I don't feel like Jokers need much eggshell-walking.

To me, Joker relationships feel much more relaxed and secure than "stable" Bell relationships because they generally lack that quality of "I am not whole without you" and "I have to constantly reassure myself that you're okay and I'm okay and you won't die or leave me and I'm the most important person to you" and instead seem to have a "I like you a lot, let's do things together" quality. I have a strong, strong aversion to codependence, and a strong preference for, I'm not sure what you'd call it - companionable independence? Which I feel like aligns more with the Joker relationship style, which is probably why I'm more comfortable with Joker relationships.

The Jokerish tendencies for not holding any pre-defined relationship expectations are also gratifying, as is the poly nature. The potential for sun-flinging upon breakup would be a sad one but if it were something they chose to do to themselves as a coping mechanism, and which I knew they would survive and not be permanently (physically) harmed by, and especially if I knew they had a Jokerpile waiting to help them... it would be acceptable to me. But I don't think it would be much of an issue - not because I might not break up with a Joker (I might), but because I empathize strongly with the "unpleasant reaction to being ignored by people I have strong feelings for" and have no reason to expect that to become a concern (if there were a Joker who had strong feelings about me, I would almost unavoidably have strong feelings about them and would have a very hard time ignoring them, regardless of our relationships status). The Joker pitfall that I'm most likely to run afoul of is the "do not coerce" one, but only with a Joker who was particularly sensitive about what counts as coercion and even then I think I'd be able to adapt once I understood what triggered the pitfall.

The Bellish tendencies to prefer monogamy and prefer codependently-stable relationships and prefer pre-defined categories and prefer being their partner's "only" in some way all don't jive with my relationship preferences. We might be able to work out a mutually satisfying relationship but overall I expect I would find a relationship with a Bell too demanding and would not be able to provide them with what they would want from me. Plus, the requirement for mental privacy is a general negative and also a Bell-specific negative: if mind-sharing were an option, it's something I'd want to occasionally do with my partner(s). If I were to date someone who wanted a codependently-stable relationship in which they were my "only" something, mind-sharing is a way I think I might be able to cope with that sort of relationship, and Bells would not be able to do that.

Typically, the more I feel like the other person in my relationship needs me, or needs me to to be a certain way, the more I feel trapped and want to leave the relationship. I think I might have that problem with a Bell, and I'd consider Golden-sans-Edward-style survival mode or Shell Bell-sans-Pearl-style non-survival mode or Sarion-sans-Aianon+Ansharil-style death-mode all to be unacceptable outcomes to a breakup and thus feel trapped and like I had to leave them. On the other hand, I don't think the prospect of Jokerish sobbing or arson or sunflinging would make me feel trapped, so I wouldn't feel the need to leave. Well, the arson might if it were going to be done as an attempt to harm me rather than get my attention, but I don't think that's what it would be about? Man, I'm having a hard time explaining why sunflinging is an acceptable outcome, but it's basically because ultimately the Joker would be okay without me, even if they needed some time in the sun in order to get there.

Overall, suffice it to say, I identify a lot with aspects of both Bells and Jokers, but if I were going to date one, I'd rather date the Joker.

Edit: Actually, somewhat relatedly, I've found it fairly surprising how stable ALL of the relationships we've seen in Effulgence have been. I'm not sure I can think of a single breakup that's occurred during the story (maybe the friend-breakup between Ripper and Rayne? but we hardly saw their relationship onscreen so I'm not sure how much it counts. Have there been any others that I'm forgetting?). Any reasons why that is? I have just been assuming that you both find it more fun/interesting to play out continuing relationships than breakups. Are we going to see breakups in Effulgence in the future?)

XDDDDD Going by what you've said there, Tamien, a Joker would totally date you. And you'd probably get along well. And you would be invited to many Joker cuddlepiles and Queenie would hug you and tell you you are a darling.

re: Jokers being okay without you - yeah. Jokers end up okay. Sometimes they get there through an extremely circuitous route, sometimes what is okay to them might not be okay to most people, sometimes they need to fling themselves into the sun, sometimes they need to spend time recovering, but any Joker who doesn't die will end up okay eventually. I don't think there's anything you can do to a Joker that they couldn't bounce back from well enough to achieve a similar state to, say, Queenie - she went through some rough shit by Joker standards, so she needs frequent snuggling, but she is happy and content.

Edit re: your edit: I've actually commented before that the lack of breakups in Effulgence seems kind of weird to me, and vaguely wanted to do something about it, but so far it hasn't happened. XD I think part of the problem is that any couple cute enough to get together in the first place is cute enough that breaking them up would be sad.

Shell Bell-sans-Pearl-style non-survival mode

Um, in Shell's defense, she was going to cope okay - she hypothesized correctly that her Sherlock was alive and had Bell and that the empire was handled and she was not going to get back to what she was doing anytime soon, so she was going to focus her attention on dwelling Downside; she missed Sherlock but wasn't going to self-destruct over it. It's just then I had her tortured for twenty-five years.

Re: infrequency of breakups: Bells get really super attached to their partners and want to keep them and are willing to put work and brainhacking and creativity and sticktoitiveness to doing that. If they didn't do that we'd have seen several breakups and be on the potential cusp of more. Kas would be sooooo dumped as soon as Ama could figure out a way for this news to reach Helen without causing immense psychological problems to the innocent thirteen-year-old. Ripper and Pat's relationship wouldn't have survived him cheating on her; Etty and Nona might not have done either, although the fact that Aether was right there to cover for it would have given them a shot. Stella would have given up on getting everything she wants out of Alice sometime around when he torched his vampirism gone. Aegis would have considered herself broken up with when she came home to an absence of kisses, though that could have been salvaged roughly as it in fact was. Juliet might have cut her losses instead of waiting patiently for nebulously-defined Things to get better. If I were writing Bells this way I can't even guarantee that Angela/Micaiah would have survived the spaceship revelation.

:D The Jokers' capacity to be okay would be immensely relieving and I would probably feel safe and comfortable dating a Joker. Also they are all very attractive and playful and clever and kinky and adorable and have hobbies I share interest in, so I expect I would not only feel safe and comfortable but also very happy XD Jokers are some of the more date-able fictional characters I have run across! Hmm, if shipping yourself is a thing one can do, perhaps I will add Joker/me to my ship-list XDD Is that a thing one can do? I feel like that might be a frowned-upon practice :P

I would be very pleased to be invited to Joker cuddlepiles! Also Queenie is a darling and I am glad she has access to all the snuggling she needs in order to be happy and content and would be happy to help provide additional snuggles as desired.

Alicorn: It's actually not Shell's sans-Pearl mode that concerns me so much as Shell Bell's. Shell was doing fine downside without Pearl! Well, until the torture. It's how I suspect Shell Bell would react to losing Pearl now that I would not be able to deal well with. Luckily, Pearl deals with it admirably and so instead of being a sad horrific mess they are sortof bittersweetly adorable. Perhaps I misestimate Shell Bell's current capacity to be okay without Pearl but I suspect I would not handle it nearly so well.

The Bells in those scenarios all displayed an admirable even-keeledness and ability to cope with and adapt to very tough situations and I was very impressed at their tenacity and willingness to put in work in their relationships! At this point I'm not sure there's anything that would lead a Bell to leave her partner. However, the fact that they're willing to put in really staggering amounts of work in the face of huge emotional pain due to super-strong attachment to their partners strikes me as really sweet and romantic and sortof awe-inspiring and also something that I would probably find somewhere between uncomfortable and terrifying if I were to date a Bell, depending on how necessary they found it to put in such work in order to maintain the relationship. I would probably interpret it as "this person is mentally and emotionally torturing themselves for the sake of being with me, this is not an acceptable tradeoff, I should go now" and would require a lot of talking-down and convincing in order to believe that this was Okay.

You are 100% allowed to ship yourself with Jokers. I ship myself with Jokers. It's fair to say that if you ship yourself with Jokers, Jokers probably agree. XD

At this point I'm not sure there's anything that would lead a Bell to leave her partner.

It could be done. We're just really unlikely to pair a Bell with anybody who produces that kind of behavior.

Yeah, I was accounting for the unlikeliness of Bells to pair with people who might do something utterly unacceptable to them. I think for a Bell to leave their partner, either some really drastic change of circumstances would have to occur (something changes the fundamental nature of one of them, they become permanently separated, or some other insurmountable outside problem), or the Bell would have to be with someone in an explicitly temporary arrangement (we're dating until one of us goes off to college, we're dating until I take over the world, we're dating while it's useful/convenient for us to date but will stop when it stops being useful/convenient), or the Bell would have to have been really thoroughly deceived by their partner and then discover their partner was deceptive and hiding unacceptable things from them (eg, if you decide do make a Sharing Knife Fawn!Bell, she would have to have been very thoroughly deceived in order to get into Fawn's circumstances, but would probably leave as Fawn did once the deception was uncovered). I'm not sure what else might lead a Bell to end a relationship.

On the topic of the Sharing Knife, if the Fawn!Bell's partner not only deceived her into thinking they would get married (as Fawn was), but actually deceived her into marriage, what sort of thing would they have to have been deceiving her about in order for to leave while pregnant once she uncovered the deception? I assume there's no way for a Bell to misjudge a partner that badly about whether she'd feel okay bringing a child into the world with them without having been purposefully deceived, but what sort of thing that could be hidden would be sufficient to make her leave once she was that committed?