<Ezra> Hey IRC, I've been contemplating my more genders setting fragment. I'm deciding whether to (a) ramble about what I have, (b) wait for more to fall into place and write a tidier setting doc, or (c) wait all the way to exploring it in a thread (probably Milliways box). Do you have a recommendation, IRC folks?
<@kappabeta> rambling is a time-honoured irc tradition
<ErinFlight> Ezra, I want to listen to you ramble
Topic changed by Jarnvidr to: Ezra rambles
<Ezra> Okay so
<Ezra> In this world, humans have substantially more variation in their primary and secondary sexual characteristics.
<Ezra> It clusters a bit, but not bimodally. So societies have to create somewhat more complicated gender systems.
<Ezra> (Or say "fuck gender" altogether.)
<Ezra> I think I'll start with listing some common parts, together with some common genders from one particular society that usually have those parts
<Ezra> Wombs are important! They're the most popular way to grow a baby.
<Ezra> There are a few common kinds of womb.
<Ezra> (Augh I'm having trouble serializing my thoughts into this text connection)
<ErinFlight> Ezra, womb types? I want to know!
<Ezra> Besides the model most familiar from Earth, common kinds of womb include a deluxe model that supports adding babies even while occupied, an economy model with no ovaries or menstruation, and, um, a rear access model.
<ErinFlight> Are these models people can choose?
<Jarnvidr> Hahaha
<Jarnvidr> That's the best description Ezra
<Ezra> Regrettably, not without, like, plastic surgery and/or organ transplants.
<Ezra> Though it's at least a fairly simple surgery to switch from one of the others to something approximating the economy model.
<ErinFlight> Huh, that's good at least
<ErinFlight> How do the economy models function? Does someone else donate the fertilized egg?
<Ezra> Yeah, there's anatomy and a gender for that.
<Ezra> Sure, let's explore in that direction.
<@Adelene> (is there a model that does eggs? is there a marsupial model? how weird does this get?)
<ErinFlight> Do babies always have two parents who give genetic material? Are their three parent babies?
<Ezra> I'm not currently aware of a laying eggs anatomy. How weird this gets is currently at the Gardening elves but I haven't ruled out more.
<Ezra> Um, before, we move on, I want to mention at least one of the genders strongly associated with those wombs. There's a gender for people who can carry more than one baby at once. This gender covers two major phenotypes: people with a deluxe womb, and people with both a front and a back womb.
<ErinFlight> Interesting...
<Ezra> There's a cultural pressure on members of that gender to marry young and have lots of kids.
<Ezra> Yes, there are kids with more than one genetic parent.
<Jarnvidr> So what are you doing with history, geography? Ceteris paribus?
<Ezra> As yet undetermined. If I had to pick now, I'd go the Belle's world way - familiar geography, reminiscent names, unrecognizable borders.
<Ezra> Kids with more than one genetic parent.
<Ezra> There's a gender for accepting genetic material, combining it, and emitting it again.
<Ezra> With this, you can have kids with one parent who contributes half the genes, and potentially several for the other half.
<Ezra> Anatomy variants for this gender include: front access or rear access; various possible shapes of penis of similar general function.
<RoboticLIN> ... Rear access wombs?
<RoboticLIN> Wombs.*
<ErinFlight> That's neat. I like that.
<RoboticLIN> I have never actually considered or heard of such a thing. Congratulations.
<RoboticLIN> Also I am slightly squicked by such a thing and will go lurk in #carmine or something.
<RoboticLIN> Have fun o/
<Ezra> If rear access wombs squick you then yes, this ramble is not for you, go with my blessing. (Oops missed you)
<ErinFlight> I am intrigued
<Throne> [02:30:43] <RoboticLIN> >Only slightly, but yes Ezra.
<ErinFlight> Wouldn't that carry risk of disease?
<Ezra> Birds seem to manage okay. Also that feature is nicked directly from the Omegaverse inspiration material.
<Ezra> Details vary from one omegaverse implementation to another, but they all agree that omega males are equipped for anal pregnancy.
<ErinFlight> That's true
<Ezra> Btw, I don't have nicknames for most of the genders, but the genetic material sharing ones are "bees."
<ErinFlight> Hehe
<Jarnvidr> How were you thinking of using this setting?
<Ezra> The furthest I've thought it out is, like, Milliways box.
<ErinFlight> It does seem fun
<Ezra> Mostly I was just annoyed that there wasn't anything with the cool parts of the omegaverse but without the, like, gender essentialism and enforced rape.
<Ezra> So I wanted to do better.
<ErinFlight> I'm glad!
<ErinFlight> The omega verse has cool stuff, but also a lot of really gross stuff
<ErinFlight> I always wanted to know more about female Alphas or whatever the equivalent would be
<Ezra> There are a few stories about alpha females!
<Ezra> Their portrayal is a bit more varied than omega males.
<ErinFlight> Ooh really. Have you read any good ones?
<Ezra> I read one cool Homestuck Omegaverse with alpha Rose.
<Jarnvidr> Is it ao3, I can probably find it later?
<Ezra> It was AO3. Having trouble with mobile search to find it.
[Ed.: Expectations by LaPronCat. M/M but with female characters also.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/236256 ... rs/5215583 ]
<Ezra> Are people satisfied with the amount of setting ramble I have provided? If not, I could ramble about child genders or elves or something.
<Ezra> Or if we're done with that, we can move the channel topic along and invite Lin back.
<Throne> I think people are typically up for rambles
<Throne> :P
<Ezra> Well, how about more ramble. Child genders.
<RoboticLIN> I was told the worst is over and that I would not like what was about to be discussed.
<RoboticLIN> (In carmine.)
<Ezra> Oh okay.
<Throne> oh okay it might be back
<Ezra> Well, I'm done talking anatomy for now.
<Throne> it was at least temporarily gone
<Ezra> I can talk culture or stop rambling, as you prefer.
<RoboticLIN> I meant more... Wild womb so forth discussion.
<RoboticLIN> It's fine.
<RoboticLIN> Discuss and go on or whatnot. I own no authority here. :P
<Ezra> A lot of the stuff that determines your reproductive capabilities, in this setting, doesn't really give any external sign until puberty.
<Ezra> So kids are assigned at birth to kid genders, based on things that are visible.
<Ezra> They correlate somewhat to adult genders, but not too well and there's fewer of them anyway.
<Ezra> With the advent of medical imaging, some people suggested assigning babies directly to adult genders. But it didn't catch on. Feels too much like sexualizing children.
<Ezra> I'm currently planning four kid genders.
<Ezra> The names I currently have for them are "boy", "girl", "kender", and "elfet".
<RoboticLIN> Aww look at the little Elflet!
<Ezra> If a baby has elf hair, they get elfet. Otherwise one of the others by external anatomy.
<Ezra> Then around puberty, signs start to come in, and you can start guessing your adult gender.
<Ezra> It's quite common - perhaps a quarter to a third - to guess one thing around fourteen, and something else by twenty.
<Ezra> This is really convenient for people who are trans, in the sense of having an internal sense of gender that doesn't quite match their anatomy. The culture's already set up to acknowledge people going, "oops, I thought I was that gender, but really I'm this other one!"
* RoboticLIN gives the thumbs up
<Andygal> Trans positive settings! I love them.
<Ezra> :D
<Ezra> It's less convenient from a body dysphoria perspective: more body shapes means more chance to get the wrong one. But at least more people with body dysphoria means more support in the culture for it.
<Ezra> A typical health plan acknowledges one modestly-priced SRS surgery as a common cost of growing up, like glasses or braces.
<Teceler> this is a nice thing
<Ezra> The available surgeries might not get you quite where you want your body to be but they should at least be able to deal with any most offensive parts.
<Ezra> I speculate that the most frequent is probably to remove some part that grew in when you weren't expecting it, like surprise breasts or a surprise penis.
<Ezra> (That can happen and I imagine it is a huge relief for some and a nasty surprise for others.)
<Ezra> Sex ed classes are not generally segregated, because (a) there are too many genders for that and (b) you may not know in advance which you'll need anyway.
<Ezra> But that does limit how explicit sex ed teachers are willing to get in diagrams and demos.
<Ezra> I think that's everything I know about child genders. I did specifically want the setting to be trans-positive.
<Moriwen> Do kids in this setting do the "X gender has cooties!" thing?
<Ezra> Hmm. Probably
<Moriwen> I'm curious how the various child-genders interact with each other. (E.g., what's the equivalent of "girls go to college to get more knowledge/boys get to Jupiter to get more stupider"? Do some of the genders consider some of the other three more/less gross than the others?)
<RoboticLIN> I have not heard of that Jupiter thing.
<Ezra> Boy is most gross. Kender is most academic.
<Andygal> Heh when I was kid we were like "boys go to Jupiter to get more stupidier, girls go to Mars to get more chocolate bars".
<Andygal> Or the reverse.
<Ezra> They probably do the "cooties" thing because if you divide kids into groups, they'll form group identities. But words for it are probably not etymologically cognate to cooties because three of the four kid genders can have vaginas (kender don't).
<Moriwen> ...I don't think that's an etymological connection?
<Ezra> Cooooter
<Ezra> Is afaik the root there
<Moriwen> Google suggests that it originated from a malaysian term for a parasite.
<Ezra> *shrug* okay, it could be etymologically cognate to that
<Ezra> But actually, kender specifically do have a trope of all the other three genders have specifically cooties. Kender are the least likely to get into romance and also the least likely to have vaginas.
<Moriwen> (I had just never made that connection in my brain and so was surprised by the statement. XD)
<Ezra> Let's talk kender! They're the ones who had no externally visible reproductive anatomy as babies.
<Ezra> No penis or vagina or elf hair.
<Ezra> (...naughty brain, I did not require the phrase "pubic elf")
<@kappabeta> <3
<Andygal> ....
<@kappabeta> I am liking this setting so far.
<Ezra> Darn it, that's even a thing, isn't it? Some kids have regular hair on their heads, but their pubic hair grows in elfy.
<Ezra> I just thought of it and already I hate it. ...Nicely hate it.
<@kappabeta> <333333333
<RoboticLIN> ... The carpet matches the drapes?
<@kappabeta> Or doesn't.
<@kappabeta> And then there's the upholstery.
<Ezra> In this case, the carpet specifically does not match the drapes.
<@kappabeta> Elf armpits!
<Faceless> " upholstery." xD
<Andygal> XD
<Andygal> kappa ilu
<@kappabeta> XD
<Ezra> How does it feel when you notice what it means that unlike your classmates with elf parents, your elf parent has non-elf hair on their head?
<@kappabeta> :P
<RoboticLIN> ... Is that how they be pregnant? Wear their part of the hair-seed still attached for awhile?
<Ezra> I am not aware of any practice that resembles what you describe?
<RoboticLIN> ... I may have attempted to find what you have already written and hit the wrong thread.
<Ezra> Also it would be really hard to tie it while it's still attached to you.
<Ezra> The elves here are a lot like the elves I described in that thread, a little different.
<RoboticLIN> A typical Elf of this type can take a cutting of eir own hair together with a cutting of eir non-elf partner's hair, and tie them in a certain sort of knot, to make a seed. Planted and properly cared for, the seed will grow a plant, and the plant will grow a baby.
<RoboticLIN> I of course missed any conext of /what/ you were describing. Sorry.
<RoboticLIN> So if this is about some different setting, I'm sorry.
<Ezra> The analogue of pregnancy for a Flower Hair Elf is having a baby-plant growing in your garden.
<Kel-tab> Oh the genders thing cool!
<Ezra> It's not visible on you as such, though often the place where you cut your hair is.
<Kel-tab> Are you back to plant elves?
<Ezra> This is the setting they got kicked to
<Ezra> From that other one
<RoboticLIN> ... OH.
<RoboticLIN> [23:26:40] <RoboticLIN> ... Is that how they [SHOW OFF THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE A BABY]? Wear their part of the hair-seed still attached for awhile?
<RoboticLIN> I messed up the question.
<RoboticLIN> (That line is the fixed part.)
<RoboticLIN> [23:28:36] <Ezra> Also it would be really hard to tie it while it's still attached to you.
<RoboticLIN> That answers my question. Thank you.
<Ezra> Cool.
<Ezra> Yeah. A culture could try to do it that way. I won't WoG that they can't. But in my primary culture, the show off is to wear your hair in a style that makes the cut spot conspicuous.
<RoboticLIN> Well sure Ezra. Feel free to whatever with any of my wild thoughts o/
<Ezra> Other elf changes from that concept that come to mind:
<Ezra> Elf hair is in flower-bright colors. It's, um, _conspicuous_ for someone with another hair type to dye their hair flower-bright, like wearing a padded bra if you don't have breasts.
<Ezra> I think elf hair also frequently grows in little coils, much smaller and coilier than normal hair curls. Not fully decided on that.
<Ezra> The other difference is I'm now lukewarm on the elf-plants. They really belong in a place where elf is more a species than a gender.
<Ezra> (The plants that in the design in the thread happen from two elves' seed, and aren't people but can store genes.)
<Kel-tab> Neat!
<Ezra> Those plants aren't in this design right now, just the baby plants.
<Ezra> I got distracted on my way to talking about kender.
<Ezra> They're the ones who as babies had no externally visible reproductive anatomy.
<Ezra> Some of them will discover at puberty some parts that push them one way or another - elf hair, breasts, what have you.
<Ezra> Others won't experience puberty directly at all. Everyone else's bodies are changing and growing tall, while they're just growing at the usual rate.
<Ezra> These kids continue into the "adult" gender also called kender.
<Ezra> Scare quotes because they're liable to be treated like children for the rest of their lives, or at least until they show conspicuous signs of old age.
<Teceler> ugh
<Ezra> Indeed.
<Ezra> The expected life path for many genders is marriage and kids. Kender could theoretically adopt, and are unimpeded in having kids with elves, but our culture of principal concern expects a different path.
<Ezra> Well-to-do folks are culturally encouraged to "adopt" teenage or young adult kender, as a status symbol, to serve as a playmate for their kids and/or to continue in higher education (originally bible school, now secularized).
<Teceler> ...wtf @ Ezra's setting
<Ezra> Teceler - well, what would you have the setting do with all these permanent minors?
<Teceler> Ezra, idk, maybe NOT CONSIDER THEM PERMANENT MINORS
<Ezra> Used to be you could put then to work on the farm, but we have child labor laws now, don'tchaknow?
<Ezra> It's like the late twentieth, early twenty-first century now - p sure kender can vote, hold a job if there's not manual labor or long hours
<RoboticLIN> Are they like... Prepubescent teenagers for all of life?
<Ezra> Might even be able to drink! If you're willing to get super carded
<Ezra> That's the body life gives them, yup.
<RoboticLIN> Well do they atleast get the teenage superpowers of good metabolism and fixable parts?
<Ezra> Tentative yes.
<Ezra> Haven't thought through the implications but it sounds right.
<RoboticLIN> Well I meant more as 'are they just adults with teenaged looks or genetically kinda teenagers'
<Ezra> What's the difference?
<Ezra> Or: rephrase again?
<AndygaI> I think it's "do they function metabolically as young teens"?
<Ezra> (Also, "teenaged looks" somewhat connotes pubescent to post-pubescent, which is not the appearance they get)
<RoboticLIN> Well I said pre-pubescent before but yeah
<RoboticLIN> ... Giant little girls! AAAAH!
<Ezra> How can I tell if someone functions metabolically as a young teen?
<RoboticLIN> ... I just meant like.
<RoboticLIN> Teens/before are like, better at healing from stuff?
<RoboticLIN> And/or underdeveloped lobe etc
<Ezra> They do generally grow to be taller than your average twelve-year-old, though shorter on average than other adults.
<Ezra> To the healing from stuff question, my "tentative yes". I don't understand the "underdeveloped lobe" question.
<RoboticLIN> Something I barely remember that is 'well teenagers have underdeveloped some sort of lobe that is responsible for time management and responsibility'
<RoboticLIN> I don't quite remember and it is...
<RoboticLIN> Well past midnight! Hurhah!
<Teceler> brain development during and after puberty is a relevant question
<Ezra> I'm inclined to say that this is an open question of scientific research in the world, but kender have a reputation for better time management and responsibility than other teenagers due to hormonal balance.
<Ezra> Substantially less of the snogging in the hallways and sneaking genderfriends in the windows, at least by reputation.
<Ezra> Also less of the surprise aggression, surprise moodiness, and general surprise at their body's behavior.
<Ezra> I don't know what proportion of kender kids hope to grow out of it vs. stay kender for life.
Topic changed by RoboticLIN to: Ezra rambles eternal
<Ezra> I have a lot of this system in my head okay, I will ramble until someone is tired of it or I go to bed
<AndygaI> I am not tired of it.
<Ezra> Oh, there aren't equal numbers of the genders in a typical kids population. My very rough guess is like three boys to two girls and one kender, plus a wider-varying population of elfets but let's say two is typical.
<Ezra> Actually, make that one elfet, that's too many elves.
* AndygaI snrks
<Ezra> This variation is chiefly because the kid genders correspond to different numbers of adult genders.
<Ezra> What else have I left out of this setting ramble? I think I'd like to exclude the horrifying vore gender. Like, ban it from the setting. That sounds like a good idea.
<Moriwen> ...horrifying vore gender? XD
<AndygaI> Yes let's ban horrifying vore genders.
<Ezra> I would tell you, Moriwen, except it is horrifying and also banned from the setting.
<Moriwen> buuuut
<AndygaI> this is a good choice.
<Moriwen> I like horrifying
<AndygaI> I approve this choice.
* AndygaI throws a bucket at Moriwen
<Moriwen> hmph
<Teceler> Moriwen no
<Moriwen> y'all are no fun :P
<Ezra> The general direction of the horrifying is towards Echidna from Worm.
<Ezra> A non-horrifying gender is the gender for delivering egg cells.
<rockeye> What's this about extra genders
<AndygaI> Ezra is rambling about a setting.
<Teceler> setting Ezra's making
<Ezra> I've been on an extended ramble about a setting, yeah.
<rockeye> I have considered systems of more genders before. Not in humanoids so much. The one I eventually settled on for the Hivers is male-female-gestator-worker.
<Ezra> One for eggs, one for sperm, one to carry? And then a fourth for not getting distracted?
<rockeye> Hivers are very very strict caste system. Workers work, that is all they do. Princesses do genetics work but mostly make more Hivers to give to the gestators, who live in luxury while gestating, and Princes go off on adventures wandering from Princess to Princess.
<rockeye> Well, Workers also enjoy food and make art and music. But they never even consider sex, it's just not a thing.
<Ezra> That sounds practical enough.
<Ezra> I think it would fit in with the "systems of more genders" thread, at least as well as the Pierson's Puppeteers do.
<rockeye> The wandering is actually a biological imperative for Princes, like, the Prince On His First Journey is not just a standard trope but the basis of almost all adventure novels.
<Ezra> What, no novels for his Second Journey? :P
<rockeye> you get what I mean
<rockeye> They will literally die if not allowed to wander for too long.
<Ezra> Huh!
<rockeye> 'wandering' can vary but is basically 'not staying with the same Princess for more than a few months'
<rockeye> If they're the captain of a ship stationed in orbit over Boring Punishment Detail Planet #6 they're still fine
<Ezra> Can it be geographically small, if the princesses are densely packed?
<rockeye> yyyyes but princesses don't so much do densely packed.
<rockeye> Average ratio is 1 Female Royal - 3 Male Royals - 500 Gestators - 50000 Workers
<Ezra> That's a big ratio.
<rockeye> Yes. They're insectoid, the big ratio is part of the aesthetic.
<rockeye> If I did this in a humanoid species I'd make it like 1-1.5-10-50
<rockeye> Mammilian, I should say.
<Ezra> That's leaning harder on kin selection than I'm used to for mammals. Could lead to interesting culture.
<rockeye> *doesn't actually know much genetics or evobio and might adjust to advice*
<rockeye> google to the rescue
<rockeye> I'll tune it down more, then
<rockeye> 1-1-5-5?
<rockeye> what was this about vore
<Ezra> So in the setting I was rambling about, there's much greater variety in human reproductive morphology, and a consequently increased variety of genders.
<rockeye> Does it have a thread
<Ezra> Nope, just a ramble in here. I'm planning to drop a summary on the "systems of more genders" thread but I guess I could also give it its own.
<rockeye> Okay, but I am curious and just joined recently
<rockeye> Do you mind repeating yourself?
<AndygaI> drop it in existing thread first I think
<AndygaI> if it gets a lot of chatter it can be moved later.
<Ezra> (Hey posterity, I mentioned an omegaverse fic with female alphas. It's an m/m fic but there are significant female characters esp. in chapter 3. Tracked it down.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/236256 ... rs/5215583 )
<Ezra> Rockeye - I'd rather not subject the channel to, like, a paste of the entire ramble so far. It's been like five hours. But I could summarize, or I could start trying to assemble a paste for the forum?
<rockeye> yeah I did mean summaries
<rockeye> Like, what number of genders, overall role
<Ezra> Okay. Number of genders - indeterminate as yet, planned for order of maybe 12ish?
<Ezra> What is overall role in this context?
<rockeye> "lots"
<Ezra> Lots of genders.
<rockeye> like how I went egg-sperm-gestation-worker
<rockeye> like that
<Ezra> Ok. We've discussed one gender that can carry multiple pregnancies at once, another that can combine genetics of sperm and re-emit, another that can deliver egg cells to a partner's womb
<Ezra> And the hair elves, which were discussed briefly on the forum
<rockeye> do The Two Bog Standard Human Genders still exist
<Ezra> No
<Ezra> Greater or lesser analogues exist, but no perfect match.
<rockeye> "hair elves" being quenya?
<Ezra> Sorry, no, more like "flower hair elves" or "Gardening elves"
<rockeye> oh those
<Ezra> I'm probably gonna rename them to something other than elves, for this one, since it doesn't have the "elves and dwarves" theme that other one had.
<Ezra> Besides those adult genders, we talked about kid genders. Those are a closed list of four: boy, girl, elfet, kender.
<rockeye> I am interested in the idea of a mediator gender that helps otherwise not quite compatible genders
<Ezra> Tell me more?
<rockeye> sort of like your combine-and-re-emit except they can accept from most and re-emit to most, bridging otherwise incompatible pairings.
<Ezra> Certainly there are combinations that only work with three. For trivial example, one that delivers eggs and one that delivers sperm need someone to carry. I don't think that's quote what you have in mind.
<rockeye> you are correct
<Ezra> I haven't thought out enough anatomy combinations to have a sense of what'll be incompatible. But I like the idea. I'll watch for a place to use it.
<rockeye> I saw s scifi novel with aliens that had a three step process. 'sperm'+'egg' each contain appx 2/5 genetic code, gestate if for a while, transfer to 'conditioner' who applies the remaining 1/5 and brings to term.
<Ezra> Well, it avoids the relatively-familiar sperm+egg+carrier. I'll give it points for that.
<Ezra> Or adjusts, rather
<rockeye> Also, the conditioner gender is a plant.
<Ezra> That's different!
<rockeye> Or rather very plantlike while still managing to have a brain
<rockeye> and intelligence
<Ezra> Like a skroderider, if you know those?
<rockeye> I do not know those.
<Ezra> From Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep". Good book, good aliens.
<Ezra> Skroderiders were thinking plants that had trouble setting memories, so they used electronic devices called skrodes to remember things for them. (Also to move around, being plants, hence the name.)
<Ezra> What else did we talk about? Trans-positivity in the setting.
<Ezra> The short of it is: more genders, more chance of a mismatch, more people being trans, more support for transness and trans services.
<Ezra> Kender, roughly half of whom don't move on to an adult gender but instead keep a prepubescent look their whole life.
<Ezra> They tend to be treated as permanent minors in a number of ways.
<Ezra> I think I'm done with my ramble proper, but I can answer remaining questions if any remaining folks have them.
<rockeye> @kender augh
<Ezra> It's not an ideal situation for them, yeah.
* AndygaI beats the world's society upside the head
<AndygaI> how /many/ people is this getting screwed over anyway? As a percentage of the population?
<Ezra> Ummm,
<Ezra> My crappy rough-numbers are giving a half of a seventh, that is to say one-fourteenth of the adult population as kender. Intuitively I'd bump that down to maybe a twentieth? Five percent?
<Ezra> Assuming your question was "how many permanent minors" and not "how many people in generally shitty situations", which overlaps but does not exactly coincide.
<AndygaI> it was the former.
<Ezra> Give them another century and they might be able to parlay it into a neato kids' lib movement, though.
<Ezra> They don't have all their key faces aging out of it every seven or so years.
<Ezra> I'm idly curious if you were imagining a number higher or lower than that.
<AndygaI> I wasn't really imagining a specific number at all.
<AndygaI> that's why I asked.
<Ezra> Fair enough.
<Ezra> It's probably in that 1/20 to 1/14 range.
[Ed.: And then the paste missed a bit of content-free discussion of the banned gender, and then we went to bed.]