Alicornutopia

the armor is actually their soul or that is just some sort of zombieism they absorbed?

The armor is actually the bears' souls, just like the snake is actually Cam's. It doesn't work exactly like a dæmon—I doubt they'd use it in combat if touching it was incapacitating, for example—but it's quite similar.

I feel something with such metaphysical connection should be manifested as part of them by just existing. Maybe if the bear didn't have one at the moment (is that possible?) them they could manifest their limbo gift.

Jarvis would be manifested as a computer-shaped daeva?

I have no fucking idea what would happen to a summoner Jarvis if he died. I suspect that of the daeva types, demon suits him best, but I have no idea how a house becomes a daeva.

You don't need to own something to get it in Limbo; I don't think Renée's RV actually existed, and she certainly didn't have it.

Bluelantern, I thought you'd read the first book of HDM? A lot of the stuff about bears is mentioned there. Specifically when Iorek Byrnison is missing his armor when they first meet him, and they need to help get it back. When he does get it back, Lyra notes how he treats it with the same respect a human would treat their dæmon, and that's when she realizes it actually is his soul (as had previously been mentioned).

Alicorn, I do agree with Bluelantern: if humans would get their dæmons for free, panserbjørn should get their armor. You say you're divided; what's the opposing argument?

Also, does this mean humans normally appear naked in whatever afterlife (except for nonsummoners who would consider one incomplete without a specific outfit)?

Kappa wrote:I have no fucking idea what would happen to a summoner Jarvis if he died. I suspect that of the daeva types, demon suits him best, but I have no idea how a house becomes a daeva.

Dunno? This sounds a question on the level of "How daevas even exist?" It could be handled in anyway like "summoners become always human-shaped" or "summoners always become a suitable form to house their consciouness"

also, I had that thing in mind that Daevinity-worlds literature have this "Fourth Daeva kind" trope, and now I realize there ought to be a sub-trope that relates to the idea that other species would have other daeva types (and that is why we never hear about them).

DanielH wrote:Bluelantern, I thought you'd read the first book of HDM? A lot of the stuff about bears is mentioned there. Specifically when Iorek Byrnison is missing his armor when they first meet him, and they need to help get it back. When he does get it back, Lyra notes how he treats it with the same respect a human would treat their dæmon, and that's when she realizes it actually is his soul (as had previously been mentioned)

I read the first book, but it was at least 10 years ago? I still remember feeling unconvinced.

Ah, ok. I hope to go much less time before actually finishing the series.

I read it as “it is their soul, this is a known and truetthing, and Lyra is just learning it”. The evidence in the book is also not enough to convince me that Pan is actually Lyra's literal soul; I take bear armor as a background assumption of the book in a similar way. Obviously there's a lot less evidence for panserbjørn armor, but I assume the experimrntal theologians handled all the evidence for that.

The daemons have metaphysical properties that seem soul-y to me. If it dies you die, if it hurts you hurt, when you're born it shows up, it needs to be near you, if people start poking and prodding it this is Very Bad, if you are good and proper cut off from it you are not much of a person anymore. Iorek had his armor stolen for a long time and suffered no effect worse than alcoholism, they show no inclination to go out of their way to protect their armor from harm, IIRC in the book bears start using prettier fancier armor and are like "fuck that" after Iorek creams Iofur, etc.

That makes sense. I read a lot of those things differently (Iorek didn’t suffer Intercision and was still metaphysically attached, the armor cannot be destroyed or harmed, etc.) I did wonder how armor came to exist, and if the panserbjørn need to make their own armor, where they keep their souls before then.

In any case, any further discussion hinges on “is the armor really the soul in the same way a dæmon is?”. I still tend to think yes, because that’s what’s stated in canon and I’d expect the canon characters to know. I doubt further discussion would be productive, though, and if it is it should probably be in a different thread.

The bears totally make their own armor, this is said in-book.